I use a ScanGauge to monitor fuel trim on the 8.1 Vortec motor in my motorhome, and it was starting to run lean over time. You may also get a P0174 code, which is the same problem on a second cylinder bank if your engine has one. How Much Does It Cost To Replace Timing Belt? This can also damage your catalytic converter, which is very expensive so you definitely want to fix it as soon as possible. This is quite helpful in the case of a bad MAF sensor, as the latter is among the most tedious components to diagnose. RELATED: Car Hesitates to Start Causes & How to Fix. Dont forget to unhook the negative battery terminal for 10 minutes to reset the relearning process in the computer. width: 103%; /* new */ list-style: none; .columns { Misfires occur when one or more cylinders fail to burn the fuel. Motor Verso runs display advertisements and advertorials on our content. Its exact location varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, as they fit the sensor based on the engine design. Exact OEM replacement for 2004 Silverado 2500HD 4x4 6.0L, Reviewed in the United States on August 6, 2017. This was an exact OEM replacement for my 2002 Silverado with the Vortec 8.1L 496 engine. One must bare in mind that these things have a very higher airflow through them, all air probably contains some dust/dirt that gets through any filter, there are 2 delicate hot film sensors that are bombarded with anything that gets through the filters. JavaScript is disabled. The car is Polo Volkswagen 2009. He has been working as a mechanic for over 10 years, and the majority of them specialized in advanced diagnostics and troubleshooting. Never miss important maintenance again with automated maintenance alerts! margin-left:-5%; Is there any corrosion, or perhaps visible signs of damage on the wires? color: white; Remember that engines work on a set air-to-fuel ratio.
You can use a repair manual to find the exact location or use the internet for a quick search. Required fields are marked *. To know which resistance you should see on the multimeter, you can look it up in your repair manual for your car model. It should go up when you rev the engine and down as the engine RPM decreases; if the value is stable, there is either something wrong with your diagnostic tool, MAF sensor, or the wirings to it. they are not worth it. border-width: 1px 0; display: inline; For the minimal cost, its well worth trying to clean it before you replace it. We have a focus on strong photography, and engaging articles about performance, luxury and interesting cars. Unfortunately, it sometimes happens that the MAF sensor gets worn or bad.
Finally, let the MAF sensor dry out, and ensure that its properly dried.
Also, even if cleaning the sensor doesnt solve your problem, now youll know how to find it, remove it, and replace it yourself. I was thinking of changing the MAF and oxygen sensors myself since they are easy fixes, or could I save some money by cleaning them because the car is due for a major service after this standard service interval(oil, petrol, cabin and air filter gets changed and new oil). This is owing to how accessible the MAF sensor is, requiring only plastic clips or simple mounts to be undone.
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Albeit, theyre not as prominent as either a vane-type or hot wire sensor: Its fair to say that mass air flow sensors go through a lot of use and abuse.
If you notice that your car has become more difficult to start in the morning, there is a chance that a bad air mass sensor is causing the problem. margin-right: 0; This particle accumulation over time results in poor performance of the sensor. Reviewed in the United States on December 28, 2018. Dream car: 2001 Subaru WRC rally car.
Clean or Replace the MAF sensor if faulty or repair the wirings. The newer Bosch MAF are for you car are superior to the one it came with as they now recognize that a baffle to save the sensor is needed. I have four mercedes benz in my house and I have alot of experience with these air mass sensors. Arrived packed well and clean, and no codes afterward. You can start by: In all, that rounds up our guide on how much does a mass air flow sensor cost. Really confussed??? margin: 0; Connect the multimeters red lead to the MAF sensor, and the black lead to the ground circuit. Black smoke from the exhaust pipe is a strong sign that your engine is getting too much amount of fuel compared to the amount of air. Moreover, and given how sensitive the measuring elements are, see if theres any damage or drifting there, too. This enables the ECM (the computer that runs the engine) to calculate and add the proper amount of fuel.
Never had MAF sensor replaced before and new from Merc in Germany costs approx 500. }. Been in the vehicle 3 months and no issues yet.
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But, if your check engine light is illuminating you want to check the diagnostic trouble codes first with an OBD2 scanner. RELATED: 6 Symptoms of an Engine Misfire (& 7 Common Causes). While I was initially a bit confused with the part# on the box versus the number on the part itself, I call Delphi and verified that this was still the correct part.
MAF sensors can often be quite expensive, and therefore it is important to make a correct diagnosis before choosing to replace the MAF sensor.
} While on vacation the OEM delphi sensor starting throwing a code. The car engines most sensitive situation for engine problems is at idle and during the starting moment. Now, take a look at the readings. That helped a little, but replacing it put everything back into the normal range. Here are some of the most common causes why you have to worry about a mass air flow sensor cost: Its worth noting that mass air flow sensor failure is (ever so slightly) more common in smaller cars. Thanks.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Larry. /*font-size: 22px;*/ This is from my older post, but maybe its a good question! Apart from components just failing or going out of spec the actual sensors will wear after some time.
The MAF sensor is durable and has no moving parts, so it does not require regular replacement. After viewing product detail pages, look here to find an easy way to navigate back to pages you are interested in. Replacing the mass air flow sensor sooner rather than later will avoid these potentially more serious and expensive problems.
Diagnosing a MAF sensor is often relatively easy if you know what to look for. Disabling it will result in some disabled or missing features. For the most ideal combustion (as is the case in most cars), ECUs follow the stoichiometric ratio of 14.7:1. Acceleration up to 3k rot is quite delayed but after 3k is pretty good. I had a bad maf last year, and I cheaped out and bought the 1/3 price Chinese knockoff. However, the engine control module does not always recognize a faulty MAF sensor, so it may still be defective even if there is no engine light on your dashboard. Though youll have to live with the aforementioned symptoms. You can also notice a little more gray smoke from the exhaust pipe than usual if your engine runs rich. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2022 FIXD, Inc. All Rights Reserved.Exclusive Member of Mediavine Home. They have check almost everything, These tools have been tried and tested by our team, they are ideal for fixing your car at home.
Related repairs or maintenance, such as air filter replacement,may also be needed. You know, it is really low price for genuine BOSCH MAF.
How Much Does It Cost To Replace a Windshield? border: none; In some instances, you could get away paying less than $100 to replace the mass air flow sensor, accounting for labor and parts. The most common things that happen are a control lamp, poor engine performance, uneven idling, and changed fuel consumption. I have to say I must have the only E-bay MAF that is ever been ok its done over 60,000 miles now and has been good as gold. Hello, I have an a4 b8.5 with 1.8tfsi 120hp and have rough idle.
In most cars, it should be located between the filter housing and the intake manifolds. height:100%; /* new */
I think I have a used item but in full working condition if interested. You can start by turning the engine off, setting the transmission in Park, and engaging the handbrake. How Much Does It Cost To Replace Spark Plugs? } html,body { Technically, there are also three other types of MAF sensors in use.
Just a single error code could save countless hours worth of diagnosis, and pinpoints the exact cause of an underlying issue. Therefore, if your MAF sensor is faulty and sends wrong information to the engine control unit the check engine light will illuminate your dashboard. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. That is the cheapest in the current market. Unlike before, the engine now revs-up nice & clean like it should with no hesitation. There are two types of mass air flow sensors.
This price range is based on national averages for all vehicles and does not factor in taxes, fees, or your particular make and model. In stark contrast to older cars, modern automobiles have a wide array of sensors and other electronic gadgets that actively analyze, gauge, and help to optimize key components. Unplug the wires connecting to the MAF sensor by squeezing the plastic tabs holding it in place. Or, it can rise to $500 or more. Hi Magnus. Some people have found part numbers to buy just the element, not the whole MAF. Mercedes-Benz Sedan / Coupe / Wagon Forums, The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo, Bosch 0280217500 MAF Mass Air Flow Sensor - eBay (item 220706978998 end time Jan-04-11 11:42:40 PST). RELATED: Car Losing Power When Accelerating? I drive an Audi A4 b8, 1.8T, 2014, automatic(multitronic) and the car has a solid orange check engine light.
A poor sensor will worsen how the engine will continue running. I have a genuine bosch sensor part number 0280217515 75 delivered. This is its best position, which places it on the pathway before the air gets into the engine. Also is there a picture to show what this baffle looks like. Also, instead of paying close to $300 through Workhorse, the same part did only cost me $72.49.
During summer time in high temperatures 40-41 my car engine is not starting up. A bad air mass sensor can cause many problems with your car engine, and therefore it is not recommended to drive with it. He also told me the fuel ratio sensor need to be replace. Meanwhile, labor charges are likely to be cheap, around a range of $50 to $80. It may not display this or other websites correctly. Besides that, you should also look at the sensor itself. Again, this will vary depending on the make, model, and. border: 1px solid #ccc; As you mightve guessed, internal combustion engines require two vital components to function; fuel and air.
In short, bad performance, rough idling, high fuel consumption, and so on. The following services are commonly performed with a MAF sensor replacement: Get the FIXD Sensor and free app today for a custom maintenance schedule based on your make, model, and mileage. The Mass Air Flow Sensor or MAF sensor measures the air entering the engine to calculate the correct air-fuel mixture. Bosch are very good. But either way, MAF sensors cant last forever.
This is usually because the air-fuel mixture becomes too lean, so the car engine starves due to lack of food, and this will cause it to jerk. C250 Mercedes 12 years old. Sometimes this sensor can get clogged with debris or fail entirely.
Just spray it and let it dry, it should be enough! It was never good on gas anyway, but it has now improved, and runs as smooth as a sewing machine, like new for 80 bucks, in my truck it will pay for itself in gas mileage in a month!!! Your email address will not be published. (P0101 MAF correlation error related), Smoking after fitting new MAF on ml270 cdi, CLK 350 - the story so far and it's all engine. Reviewed in the United States on March 3, 2019. This should take around 20 minutes, or upwards of an hour if youre using alcohol. This leads to pricier repairs down the line. Here is a more detailed list of the most common symptoms of a bad mass air flow sensor: The engine control module monitors all sensors in the car engine to ensure that everything is OK.
What Are The Symptoms From A Bad Mass Air Flow Sensor? This should give you ample time to head over to a mechanic and get it checked out. Just be wary to get it done in time. Just make sure this cleaning solution doesnt touch the measuring elements (hot wire, vane, etc.). Take a peek at the wiring, in particular. This usually triggers a check engine light and either a P0101, P0171, or P0174 code.
Cleaning the MAF sensor is often relatively straightforward.
You can often do this yourself if you only have basic car knowledge. It's not a bad idea before installation to clean out air box and replace air filter too while you are in there, Then fire it up, if you have a PO101 code it will be automaticly erased by battery disconnection anyway. As the O2 sensors were the original, we then decided to replace them with AC Delco O2 sensors and checked. He said the maf sensor is bad. Therefore, it shouldnt take that much time to replace, either. width:100%;
The most common ones that relate to a bad MAF sensor include: Note, fancier OBD scanners-slash-readers also enable you to visually see the MAF sensor readings in real-time. Before we look at mass air flow sensor cost, its important to understand more about what this does within your car. If you continue to drive with a bad MAF, it could cause your engine to misfire. Besides expediting the process, this may also prevent you from misdiagnosing any faults with your car. Also, cheapest i have found is 200 from gsf. Damaged caused by physical contact or front-facing accidents. ul#navigation { display: inline-block; How Long Does A Full Tank Of Gas Last: All You Need To Know, Tesla Model 3 Performance Horsepower: More Than You Think, Spirit Of Ecstacy Value: Price Of The Most Iconic Car Logo, Your email address will not be published.
Among its symptoms when the MAF sensor fails (or is on the verge of failing) include: If your mass air flow sensor is on its way out, its relatively safe to keep driving for a little bit. Final Thoughts, And Cleaning A Mass Air Flow Sensor. Rather, opting for more consistent and measurable inputs that can be extrapolated, and inform the ECU. Its quite easy to tell when you eventually need to worry about a mass air flow sensor cost. (Herere the Causes), Your Car Jerks When Accelerating?
If the voltage doesnt increase at all, then the entire sensor has failed. How Much Does a Power Steering Fluid Change Cost? You should refer to a service manual for the specific make and model of your car to know what range of voltage the MAF sensor should be operating at. Loses power on a steep hill even first gear fails which forces me to a complete stop and rebalance the car in order to take off. MJM Autohaus has a good deal on the genuine article as I posted in the other thread. Ive got back much of the pep my pickup lost over the years. For X amount of fresh air rushing into the engine, a corresponding Y amount of fuel is required to burn it.
Common Symptoms That You Need to Replace the Mass Air Flow Sensor. Fitment was perfect and it made an obvious difference making the truck run much better. All car engines are very sensitive to the right airflow mixture at the exact starting moment.
Thank you Symptoms of a Bad Airbag Sensor (& Replacement Cost), 10 Symptoms of a Bad MAP Sensor (& Replacement Cost), 5 Symptoms of a Bad Knock Sensor (& Replacement Cost), 6 Symptoms of a Bad Oxygen Sensor (& Replacement Cost), 8 Symptoms of a Bad Coolant Temp Sensor (& Replacement Cost), 3 Symptoms of a Bad Oil Pressure Sensor (Replacement Cost), 3 Signs of a Bad Boost Pressure Sensor (& Replacement Cost), 6 Signs of a Bad Crankshaft Position Sensor (& Replacement, 6 Signs of a Bad Camshaft Position Sensor (Replacement Cost), 5 Signs of a Bad Throttle Position Sensor (Replacement Cost), 4 Signs of a Bad Steering Angle Sensor (& Replacement Cost), 5 Signs of a Bad Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor (& Replacement, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw-ObLOl2qs, Car Losing Power When Accelerating? JavaScript is disabled. Re-use your MAF housing, buy the Bosch insert for $139 from Germanstar.net. Improved my engines and transmissions performance, Reviewed in the United States on February 2, 2022. Your email address will not be published. The mass air flow sensor (MAF) measures how much air goes into your engine. Altogether, these sensors can best inform the engines central command module, the ECU, about the air. Now, you can fire up the engine, and keep it idling.
On electronics for engine control systems on vehicles, unless you are building a high performance vehicle with more expensive components, I recommend the factory parts, not aftermarket. My rule of thumb now, is to buy the one that is cheapest that has a waranty that you can use. On average, and within a MAF sensors lifespan, every liter of fuel used equates to around 9,000 liters of air that flows past the MAF sensor. Then when my car ran like a bag of you-know-what, I threw it away and bought a genuine part. Constantly driving through dusty environments, exposing the sensor to even more clogging. While its a key piece of your engines operation, its quite easy for this component to fail or get clogged up with debris. Lots of cheaper MAF sensors are available, but this is not something you want to scrimp on.
Here's how to tell if you have a bad MAF sensor.
The site includes MB Forums, News, Galleries, Publications, Classifieds, Events and much more! } background-color: #FFF; I priced one from parts.com for 262.00, 08 ml320 cdi,slk 230,01 boxster S,04carrera911,67 GT350mustang,02G500L,96 s600 w140, w210 e55t 2001, EVERY PROBLEM CAN BE FIXED WITH A LIL BIT OF PATIENCE. forget the dealers and go to bosch direct. For example, it might rise to 3mg at 1,000RPM, 6mg at 2,000RPM, 9mg at 3,000RPM, and so on. This page works best with JavaScript. For a more accurate estimate based on your make, model, and location, use the. If you want to save on labor costs, its quite easy to manage a DIY mass air flow sensor replacement that takes mere minutes to perform: Aha, but theres a final trick to save on a mass air flow cost for replacement. While on idle, the MAF sensor should be reading somewhere between 0.5 to 0.7 volts on most cars. width: 100%; } Wow, what a difference this made. .columns { Reviewed in the United States on April 26, 2018. If your idle has become very rough lately or if the engine is stalling there is a big risk that your MAF sensor has gone bad. background-color: #4CAF50; display: flex; Once thats done, you can proceed by: If your diagnosis informs you that the MAF sensor has failed, then itll require a replacement. Customer Reviews, including Product Star Ratings help customers to learn more about the product and decide whether it is the right product for them. Its thus in line with an increased risk of being clogged up by debris, and is vulnerable to oil vapor flows from a positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) system. Little online searching found this one which was a lot cheaper then the local auto parts store plus the clickable coupon made it even more of a bargain. Unfortunately, FIXD is not guaranteed to be compatible with your vehicle.
.checked { I have found MAF Sensor from $45.00 to $228.00???
Replaced it, took a short drive and less then 15mins..light was gone. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. A big plus when you have the 2500HD with the 6litre and 4:11 rear end.. Wear and tear are caused by constant vibrations and impact inside the engine. It should read far higher than idle, approximately 2.0 to 2.5 volts (dependent on the vehicle). 1993 300E 2.8 (sold), 2012 C250 (wife's), 2004 C230 (sold), 2005 E320 (sister-in-law's).
After reading some forums and talking to mechanics I discovered the way to fix it was going back to a Delphi product. }
ul#navigation { Given its importance, how much does a mass air flow sensor cost, then? display: none;
Therefore, a faulty MAF sensor can cause fuel consumption to either go up or down. Unplugged, it hovers around +/- 5 at idle, perfect. Copyright 2022 Mechanic Base. Your email address will not be published. margin-right: .75em; 11 Ways to Maximize Fuel Economy (and Beat High Gas Prices), Replacing the Fuel Filter: What You Need To Know, Hesitation (when you press the gas pedal, the car pauses before accelerating). This one was EXACTLY the same as the original one I pulled out of my 2004 Chevy Silverado. A faulty MAF sensor can cause a faulty air-fuel mixture and it can cause many strange performance issues with your car and slow acceleration is one of them. (Heres How To Fix it), Car Hesitates to Start Causes & How to Fix, 6 Symptoms of an Engine Misfire (& 7 Common Causes). Top subscription boxes right to your door, 1996-2022, Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates, Learn more how customers reviews work on Amazon, See all details for Delphi AF10043 Mass Air Flow Sensor.
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Otherwise, any flux in the voltage readings is indicative of a fault with the wiring.
I am comparing witn an 1.4 tsi caxa. As I was struggling with poor & hesitating engine performance on my 8.1L Vortec V8 for my Workhorse Chassis RV, I installed this MAF sensor and it seems to have cleared up the problem. Often, the problems associated with the mass air flow sensor occur due to dirt and debris buildup on the sensor head. Came up on a scanner a few weeks back as faulty. flex: 33.33%; The first thing you may notice is your engine running a little bit rough, or perhaps not having as much power as you expect. W210.265/2001, W220/S500/2000, Porsche 997 C2S/2006, GMC K1500/1992. Before, passing that data on to the ECU, which can then sufficiently measure just how much fuel it has to pump into the engine, respectively. Worked perfectly. Once turned a VW Jetta into a pickup truck. ODB reader/app with sensor relearn function? You can find out more about.
Then the engine light will appear again.
Do you notice any oily residue on it, or maybe debris like dirt getting clogged up near the measuring elements? Fuel trims are 40+ at idle with this crap on it.
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The MAF sensor is a vital part of the car engine, and therefore a lot of things can happen to your car engine when it gets bad. Now, locate the MAF sensor in your car. Or, at least once a year. It lasted all of 5 months before I was getting the code again. Ignoring a misfire could result in ignition failure, catalytic converter damage, and unsafe or dangerous conditions while operating the vehicle.I really appreciate if u response as quickly as possible. Lives in a van down by the river.
The MAF sensor is often quite expensive, as you sometimes have to replace the whole MAF sensor housing also, but even just the sensor itself can be quite expensive. As we mentioned, its job is to gauge the rate of air flow rushing past the intakes, and into the combustion chamber. The car is currently due for a service and randomly started jerking if i drive it it in automatic at low rpm's, when I drive the car in manual it seems fine but i have to gear between 2000 to 3000 rpm and if i accelerate too fast the EPC lights goes on and it says auto-start-stop system fault. This price range is based on national averages for all vehicles and does not factor in taxes, fees, or your particular make and model. Alternatively. Your engine needs a perfect air-fuel mixture in the combustion chamber for optimal performance. This condition normally indicates a vacuum leak and we addressed these issues by replacing the intake manifold gaskets, EGR tube and gaskets and exhaust gaskets based on an extensive smoke test revealing leaks on all these areas. Related repairs or maintenance, such as, may also be needed. The mass air flow sensor isnt a routine maintenance item, but like any electronic part, it can occasionally fail. However, you can save even more money by troubleshooting the problem yourself. color: orange; You can try to call local Mercedes dealership and ask if they carry BOSCH MAF sensors and what the price is. Although, high-quality OEM-spec parts could cost you closer to $300. If you use dealer price to compare, you are sh*t. BenzWorld.org forum is one of the largest Mercedes-Benz owner websites offering the most comprehensive collection of Mercedes-Benz information anywhere in the world.
ul#navigation li { Buy from autohousAZ, Bosch MAF less than $200. Hi my corsa lite 1.4 2008 model is very high on fuel consumption, sometimes there is a delay in acceleration and poping sound coming from the front. Everything was fine for about 4 months and bam I had more MAF codes. You must log in or register to reply here. I got this MAF to replace it and now it's doing the same exact thing again a few months later. }
In addition, those symptoms, if left untreated for a long time, would rapidly accelerate wear and tear in the engine. Theyre usually measured by RPM. Kind regards Both of them also feature a similar pulse-width modulation of between 0.0 to 5.0 volts.Your engine requires a precise mixture of fuel and air in order to run at maximum power and efficiency. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Factory Spec Air Flow Meter makes all the difference in the world, Reviewed in the United States on July 11, 2020. Some recommend a good cleaning after every oil change. The "generic" Bosch units seem to work well, as well as the VW models. The BIGGEST and best independent MB forum in the UK, MB Club UK is A Mercedes Enthusiast club run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts. Remove the plug to the MAF sensor and check for corrosion. } Again, we noticed a bit of improvement, but the P0171 and P0172 codes persisted. Is that true? Therefore, it is very likely that problems will occur at idle also. flex-direction: row; Although, wed recommend against waiting, and urge prompt action to be taken. The maf in there was definitly a Bosch one though. With a quick tap of the sensor on idle, the readings should remain constant. What Causes Your Mass Air Flow Sensor To Fail? ul#navigation a.last { Measuring elements have drifted from their original tolerances and specifications. I would go with Bosch BUT a can of cleaner is $6 to $8 bucks. CRC 05110 Mass Air Flow Sensor Cleaner - 11 How to Check if a Car Is Still Under Warranty. A Mass Air Flow Sensor costs $100 and $400 and you can expect the labor costs to be $40 to $150. Pulled the sensor out and cleaned only the metal sensor. Your check engine light may turn on. So far it's working great. Though they can last for up to 10 years, MAF sensors can easily get clogged up after just 20,000 to 25,000 miles. JUNK, Reviewed in the United States on September 3, 2018.
Well, we could thank the mass air flow sensor for that, but measuring the air flow rate in real-time. Not sure where you are shopping but I always put in the OEM or better as then I don't have to think about it. I just bought the authentic Bosch that made in Germany. So the MAF sensor on my w210 E320 Avantgarde is faulty. Just make sure you dont physically touch or put a strain on the measuring elements.
Recovering autocross and track day enthusiast. Pull gently on the connectors to disconnect it, while being careful to not damage the wires. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. My transmission shifts properly again and the engine doesnt seem to strain as it used to. Since you already have a multimeter on hand, try contacting it against the measuring element with the ignition off, and the MAF sensor unplugged. Just remove the sensor head from the MAF sensor housing and carefully clean the sensors hot wire with an electronic cleaner or a specific MAF sensor cleaner like this one: However, the sensors hot wire is very sensitive and you can easily damage it therefore you dont want to touch it with your hands or with a towel! flex-wrap: wrap; What are the symptoms of a ailing meter. I've bought all three versions both for a TDI, and my landrover. (Heres How To Fix it).
@media screen and (min-width: 480px) { Changed the PCV and the intake manifold with OEM parts. text-align: center;
For a bad MAF sensor, look for any P01XX error codes.
I was shocked at the amount of dirt that dripped of the sensor. Trust me, they are a waste of money, always buy genuine MAF sensors. I suspect my MAF is also dodgy. Remember, this air flow value has to remain stable.
To diagnose it, you can proceed with the following steps to take before considering how much does a mass air flow sensor cost: The easiest way to tell whats wrong with your car is to plug in an OBD diagnostics tool. Reviewed in the United States on April 12, 2021. }
The Bosch, or one from a local parts place "remanufactured" seem to be the best bet.